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与安瓦尔共进午餐 Lunch with the FT: Anwar Ibrahim

[编辑:永太净化设备经营部] [时间:2017-05-21]

与安瓦尔共进午餐 Lunch with the FT: Anwar Ibrahim

Anwar Ibrahim is running late, snarled up somewhere in the rolling carnage of Mumbai’s traffic. But as I sit and wait it still seems remarkable that he is here at all. Only two days before, Malaysia’s opposition leader seemed likely to end up in prison for the second time. He had been on trial in Kuala Lumpur for the past 11 months on charges of sodomising a male aide, in a case that both split his homeland and dented its image abroad. Yet on January 9 the Malaysian High Court found in his favour, and so on the evening of his acquittal Anwar, 64, flew to India to speak at a conference about democracy in Asia, organised by Rajmohan Gandhi, a grandson of Mahatma Gandhi.

安瓦尔?易卜拉欣迟到了,他肯定困在孟买无可救药的交通里,动弹不得。但在我坐定等他时想到,他今天能来,就已经是一件值得大书特书的事了。仅仅几天前,这位马来西亚反对派领袖似乎还有可能第二次身陷囹圄。过去11个月中,安瓦尔因为被指控鸡奸一名男性助手,一直在吉隆坡受审。这起案件在他的祖国造成了分裂,也破坏了他在海外的形象。然而1月9日,马来西亚高级法院(Malaysian High Court)判决安瓦尔获胜。在无罪释放的当晚,64岁的安瓦尔飞往印度,准备在一场关于亚洲民主的会议上发言,会议的组织者拉杰莫汉?甘地(Rajmohan Gandhi)是圣雄甘地(Mahatma Gandhi)的孙子。

I am waiting for Anwar in a darkened booth inside Peshawri, a Moghul-themed restaurant at the back of a fancy hotel on the edge of city’s airport. A sign outside says diners will “relish the cuisine from the finest Indian restaurant in the world”, while inside the low ceilings, rough wood furniture and carpets on the walls are meant to bring to mind imperial India’s north-west frontier. The effect is undone only slightly by the towering white atrium outside, complete with palm trees and Islamic style windows.

我在莫卧儿风格的白沙瓦里(Peshawri)餐厅里比较昏暗的位置等待安瓦尔。这家餐厅紧邻孟买机场,位于一家华丽的酒店的背后。餐馆外的广告牌上写道,在这家“世界最好的印度菜餐馆”,食客们能“尽情享用美味”,餐厅内部低低的天花板,粗糙的木制家具和墙上的挂毯,意在让食客想起莫卧儿帝国时代印度的西北边陲,只有入口处高耸的白色前厅、旁边点缀的棕榈树和伊斯兰风格的窗户才稍稍冲淡了这种感觉。

Anwar’s political promise can divide even his admirers. Some are convinced he is what he at first appears to be: a liberal reformer; a talented technocrat who steered his nation through the worst of the 1997 Asian financial crisis; a genuine intellectual, who has spent time at Oxford, Georgetown and Johns Hopkins universities; and perhaps even a man capable of bringing the spirit of the Arab Spring to one of Asia’s largest majority Muslim nations.

安瓦尔的政治许诺即使在自己的崇拜者当中都可能引起分歧。一些人坚信他还是最初时的面目:一个自由派改革者;一位有才能的技术官僚,他曾让马来西亚躲过1997年亚洲金融危机的最严峻挑战;他是一位真正的知识分子,曾在牛津大学(Oxford University)、乔治敦大学(Georgetown University)和约翰?霍普金斯大学(Johns Hopkins University)任教;他或许还有能力将阿拉伯之春(Arab Spring)的精神引入马来西亚。马来西亚是亚洲最大的以穆斯林为主体的国家之一。

Yet, while the record is impressive, doubts remain about whether the man can deliver. Critics point to his early days as an Islamic student radical, or his lengthy spell in the 1990s at the heart of Malaysia’s ruling elite, when he rose to become deputy prime minister to the autocratic Mahathir Mohamad before ultimately breaking with the regime and in 1998 ending up in jail on a separate set of improbable corruption and sodomy charges. Others point to the fractious Malaysian opposition he leads, or grumble that he talks a good game in the west but flirts with Islamists at home.

然而,尽管安瓦尔有醒目的履历,但人们对他能否兑现承诺仍然心存怀疑。批评人士指出,他早年曾是一名伊斯兰派学生激进分子,并且在20世纪90年代,安瓦尔还曾长期处在马来西亚统治精英阶层的核心。这个时期他在政坛崛起,晋升为专制领袖马哈蒂尔?穆罕默德(Mahathir Mohamad)的副总理。最终他与执政当局决裂,1998年因为其它莫须有的腐败和鸡奸指控锒铛入狱。另一些人则指出,他所领导的马来西亚反对派存在内部分裂,还有人抱怨他在西方说的比唱的都好听,可是在国内却与伊斯兰派眉目传情。

Anwar turns up roughly half an hour late ? just about acceptable by Mumbai standards, but he apologises politely, nonetheless. He has delicate features and is stylishly dressed in an open-necked white shirt and black corduroy jacket, with carefully brushed hair and a neatly trimmed beard. Before his arrival I had checked his Twitter feed (he has 120,000 followers) and at the top of his stream found a picture he had posted of himself engulfed in cameras following the verdict, with a comment saying the image looked “like Hollywood”. I ask him about it, and the events of the past 48 hours.

安瓦尔迟到了半个小时,按孟买的标准应该算可以接受,不过他还是礼貌地道歉。他面目斯文,穿着入时的白色开领衬衫和黑色灯芯绒西装,头发梳得一丝不苟,胡须也修剪得整整齐齐。在他来之前,我查看了一下他的 Twitter 页面(有12万名关注者),最新的一条推文中发布了一张照片,照片上显示的是法院判决后,他被摄像机和照相机团团围住,还附上一句话,评论这张照片“像好莱坞”。我向他询问当时的情况,和过去48小时里发生的事件。

He seems genuinely surprised to have won. “There was an early breakfast with the family; my children, my son-in-law, daughter-in-law, all were there,” he tells me. “And I said, ‘We pray for the best, we say there is hope,’ but then, realistically ... ” He trails off. “I got my medicine, my toiletries ready,” he adds quietly.

对于能够胜诉,他似乎真心感到惊讶。“和家人早早地吃了早餐,孩子们,女婿、儿媳都来了,”他告诉我。“我说‘我们祈祷能有最好的结果,我们可以说还有希望’,不过,现实地考虑……”说到这里他的声音降低了下来,然后平静地补充了一句:“我准备好了要随身带的药和洗漱用品。”

As we pause the menus arrive, on large leaf-shaped slabs of wood. The food is cooked in clay ovens, inspired by cuisine from the region around the city of Peshawar, now in Pakistan. In practice this means the choices are heavy on barbecued meats. Anwar picks a peshwari kebab of lamb marinaded in yoghurt and garlic. I decide on tandoori aloo, a roasted potato concoction with raisins and cashews.

我们的对话稍停片刻时,侍者送来了用树叶形状的大木板做成的菜单。食物是用粘土灶烹调的,这种烹调方法的灵感来源于白沙瓦市周边的地区,白沙瓦现在属于巴基斯坦。实际上这种烹调方法就意味着,www.88550pj.com,菜品的种类很多都是烤肉。安瓦尔点了用酸奶和大蒜腌渍的白沙瓦烤羔羊肉。我点了唐杜里土豆(Tandoori aloo),点缀了葡萄干和腰果的烤土豆。

We also take a portion of the dal bukhara on the waiter’s recommendation ? the menu describes it as a “harmonious blend” of lentils, tomato, ginger and garlic, and it is cooked overnight ? while Anwar picks a mango lassi and some pudina paratha.

在侍者的建议下,我们还点了一份小扁豆汤(dal bukhara),菜单上形容它是用小扁豆、番茄、姜和大蒜“和谐调制”而成,用小火慢炖了整整一夜。安瓦尔还点了一份芒果拉西 (mango lassi) 和一些蒲迪纳烤饼 (pudina paratha)。

“The pudina leaf is supposed to be healthy,” he says approvingly, although I’m disappointed to discover later that pudina turns out be nothing more interesting than mint. The choices over, I mull a point of etiquette that has been bothering me for much of the day. When exactly ought one bring up sodomy over lunch? It seems inelegant to dive right in, but then perhaps better to get it over and done with, leaving the pudding for lighter matters.

他认可地说道“蒲迪纳叶子对健康有好处”,尽管我随后失望地发现原来所谓的“蒲迪纳”与薄荷别无二致。点完菜后,一个礼节问题让我思忖了片刻,其实这个问题已经困扰了我多半天??午饭期间,应该在哪个时间点提出鸡奸案的问题?单刀直入似乎不够优雅,不过先把问题解决,最后吃布丁时聊些轻松的话题或许更好。

Thankfully, Anwar spares my indecision and launches straight into the topic, as part of a flurry of details on the trial itself. He talks rapidly about the flaws of the case, the complicity of the government, and a medical report he says showed no “clinical evidence of penetration” on the aide he is alleged to have assaulted. Despite the seriousness of the topic, I am struck by how relaxed he seems. He speaks in an endearingly conspiratorial manner, leaning in to make his points before pulling back and often cracking a wry joke, before giggling a little to himself.

谢天谢地,安瓦尔让我不用再犹豫不决,开门见山地谈到了那个话题。他是夹杂在案件审理的大量细节里讲述的。他飞快地谈到案件的漏洞和政府的串通,他说,检方指控他曾实施性侵的那名男助手,接受法医鉴定后出具的报告显示没有“临床证据表明有过插入”。尽管这个话题十分严峻,但他还是表现得十分从容,这让我很惊讶。他用同谋般亲密的语气讲话,阐述观点时身体前倾,讲完后又仰靠回去。他会时常讲两句讽刺的笑话,然后兀自笑出声来。

The recent trial also showed this theatrical side, as he tells me of attempts to win over the judge with quotes from Hamlet (“let us once again assail your ears, that are so fortified against our story”), along with references to Nelson Mandela and the 1963-1964 Rivonia trial of much of the African National Congress’ leadership. The Bard turns out to be an Anwar speciality ? in 2006 he presented a paper to the World Shakespeare Congress, while a copy of the Complete Works kept him company in jail.

最近的审判中,也上演了这样的戏剧性场景,他告诉我,他曾尝试引用《哈姆雷特》(Hamlet)的台词赢得法官的认同(“let us once again assail your ears, that are so fortified against our story”),还提到了纳尔逊?曼德拉(Nelson Mandela)和1963年至1964年审判非洲人国民大会(African National Congress)多名领导人的瑞弗尼亚审判(Rivonia Trial)。原来莎翁正是安瓦尔的一个专长,2006年他还曾在世界莎士比亚大会(World Shakespeare Congress)宣读过一份论文。而在狱中与他相伴的则是一部《莎士比亚全集》。

He credits public pressure from allies in America and Turkey for his release, although Britain’s role gets a less positive reception: “David Cameron was completely muted,” he says, crossly. He mentions other friends, including Al Gore and Paul Wolfowitz, whom he first met back in the 1980s and with whom he says he still talks. He speaks of them with such affection he doesn’t seem to be name-dropping; a neat trick.

他认为自己获释得益于美国和土耳其盟友公开施加的压力,而英国的角色却并未得到同样积极的承认。他不满地说:“戴维?卡梅伦完全一言不发。”他也提到了其他朋友,包括阿尔?戈尔(Al Gore)和保罗?沃尔福威茨(Paul Wolfowitz),安瓦尔说他和后者首次会面是在20世纪80年代,至今都和他有联系。他在谈到这些人时表现得如此亲密,真的不像是在用大人物的名字装点门面;这个花招很不错。

The meal arrives, the food sparsely presented on earthy yellow plates. Anwar’s features four large chunks of lamb, while mine looks like a clump of crisply cooked sausage rolls dusted with fine greenish powder. I’m a touch disappointed but when I pick one up it crumbles enticingly between my fingers, and, dipped into a spoonful of the thick, brown dal, tastes rich, charcoaly and pleasing.

菜上来了,食物稀疏地摆放在土黄色的盘子上。安瓦尔盘中有四大块羔羊肉,我的盘中看起来则像是一堆脆生生的香肠,沾上了一层发绿的细碎粉末。起先我稍稍感觉有点失望,但刚拿起一根,它就开始在我指尖愉悦地碎裂,在一勺浓稠的棕色小扁豆酱中蘸一蘸,口感丰富、厚重,令人喜悦。

Anwar seems especially happy with his pudina bread, mentioning again the supposed health benefits. I ask how he managed physically during the trial, mindful that following his release from prison in 2004 ? the charges were eventually quashed after six years inside ? he flew to Germany for surgery, following repeated beatings. He sighs. “It has been hard. Very hard,” he says, admitting that his back may need further work.

安瓦尔似乎尤其喜欢他的蒲迪纳烤饼,他再一次提到了对健康可能有的好处。我问他,在审判期间是如何维持身体状况的,我知道在已经服刑六年,到2004年案件才终于撤销从监狱释放后,他曾因遭到反复殴打而飞往德国接受手术。他叹了口气后,说:“一直很艰难,十分艰难。”他承认自己的后背可能需要再接受治疗。

For all that, he seems surprisingly free of bitterness: prosecutors in Malaysia might have appealed his acquittal but for now he seems to be revelling in his status as a free man. The harshest words he has to say about his former boss Mahathir, who led Malaysia for more than two decades until 2003, is that he represents the “past face of Asian leaders ... of Asian values, condescending to our citizens; where democracy or freedom are seen as essentially western constructs.”

尽管如此艰难,他还是令人惊讶地没有表现出怨恨。马来西亚检方或许会对安瓦尔无罪开释提出上诉,但眼下他似乎仍在对恢复自由人的状态感到愉悦。关于前老板马哈蒂尔,他说的最尖锐的话是,马哈蒂尔代表着“亚洲领导人和亚洲价值观过去的面貌……对公民居高临下地和蔼,而民主和自由则被认为本质上是西方的观念。”马哈蒂尔曾领导马来西亚二十多年,一直到2003年才卸任。

As his thin fingers bring together small parcels of bread, lamb and dal, he tells me there should no longer be any reason to see a contradiction between Islam and democracy. “The vast majority of Muslims are under democratic rule,” he says, “or are opting for democracy, as in Egypt.” The old leaders ? be it Mahathir, ousted Arab despots, or, by implication, Najib Razak, Malaysia’s current elected leader ? are out of touch with what he describes as a new wave of Muslim democracies.

他用纤细的手指把烤饼卷起,包裹住羊肉和小豆时,他告诉我,已经没有什么理由认为伊斯兰教和民主之间存在矛盾了。他说:“绝大多数的穆斯林要么处在民主统治下,要么正在选择民主道路,比如埃及。”老派的领导人,无论是马哈蒂尔还是被推翻的阿拉伯独裁者,抑或安瓦尔暗指的马来西亚现任民选总理纳吉布?拉扎克(Najib Razak),都脱离了他所说的新一波穆斯林民主化浪潮。

What sort of leader would he be? Anwar mentions Turkey as an inspiration. It’s an interesting one, given Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdogan is also accused of authoritarian leanings and making religious alliances that undermine his country’s secular state. Anwar says the two men have similar hopes for Islamic democracy, and have discussed the wider opportunity presented by the recent Arab uprisings. “I talk about the Malaysian Spring, but our route will be elections,” Anwar says, adding with a flourish, “It’s going to happen very soon!”

他会成为哪种领袖呢?安瓦尔提出土耳其是一个范本。这个提法值得玩味,毕竟土耳其总理雷杰普?塔伊普?埃尔多安(Recep Tayyip Erdogan)也被指责有专制的倾向,并在建立可能损害该国世俗政体的宗教联盟。安瓦尔说,他们两人对伊斯兰民主有相似的期望,还曾经探讨过最近发生的阿拉伯之春带来的更广阔的机遇。“我提过马来西亚之春,不过我们的途径是选举。”安瓦尔挥动着手势说。“很快就能发生!”

Yet, even if you take Anwar’s liberalism at face value, he still has domestic constraints to contend with, not least from his awkward and ideologically inchoate opposition movement, which combines a trio of parties representing liberal, ethnic Chinese and orthodox Islamic views.

然而即使你对安瓦尔口中讲出的自由主义观点不加怀疑地接受,他也仍然需要直面国内问题的掣肘,尤其是他领导的反对派运动十分尴尬,而且在意识形态方面尚不成熟。反对派运动由三个分别代表自由派、华人和伊斯兰教正统立场的政党结合而成。

He tells me that if he wins power in the election likely to be held this year, his goal will be economic improvement. It is an aim for which he again picks a western intellectual model, in the egalitarian ideas of Harvard philosopher John Rawls. I find it hard to imagine Rawls being a widely agreed upon reference point within his coalition, but it is equally hard to imagine this thoughtful man as much of a closet Islamist either.

他告诉我,如果他能通过可能在今年举行的大选当权,他的目标会是改善经济。为这个目标,他也挑选了一个西方知识界给出的模式,哈佛大学哲学家约翰?罗尔斯(John Rawls)的平等主义观点。我难以想象罗尔斯成了他领导的政治联盟里,得到广泛认同的参照点,不过同样难以想象的是,这个有思想的人同时也是一个隐秘的伊斯兰主义者。

Is dealing with his more orthodox Islamic allies easy? Anwar smiles, ruefully. “From time to time they would object to Elton John coming to the country,” he says, “or to Beyoncé for dressing too sexily.” But, beyond that, he says the three opposition parties agree on the need for basic rights and freedoms. His own beliefs help cement the consensus, he says: “If it was some non-Muslim, they’d think that I was a bit wishy-washy and easy, but, no, I’m a Muslim. People ask, ‘Do you believe in the Koran?’ and I can say ‘Yes’. ”

与更加正统的伊斯兰派盟友打交道容易吗?安瓦尔苦闷地微笑说:“他们时不时地会反对埃尔顿?约翰(Elton John)来马来西亚,谴责碧昂丝(Beyoncé)穿着太性感。”不过他表示,除此之外,三个反对派政党都认同基本权利和基本自由的需求。帮助塑造共识的是他本人的信仰,他说:“如果是某个非穆斯林的话,他们就会觉得我太糊涂,太软弱。可是我是穆斯林,所以如果有人问我‘你信仰《古兰经》吗?’我就可以说‘我信’。”

Pushing a little, I ask whether he would allow hudud, a controversial form of sharia law that involves corporal punishment for certain crimes, to be introduced in Malaysia. He looks pained, and exhales slowly before admitting this is “one of the more difficult issues I have to deal with”. There follows a lengthy exercise in square-circling, in which he refuses to rule out their introduction but says they would need to be in line with other rights and also to have widespread public support. “We must reach a consensus, which is not possible in the foreseeable future, but what if you’re given a situation where all Malaysians agree? Who am I to say no?” The explanation has a kind of logic, but it is also unsatisfying.

我又紧追一步,问他会不会允许在马来西亚引入伊斯兰刑法(hudud),www.88550pj.com。伊斯兰教法(sharia law)中这种备受争议的形式,涉及对某些罪行处以肉体刑罚。他表情痛苦,缓缓地叹了一口气后,承认这是“我需要处理的比较棘手的问题之一。”紧接着他长篇大论地艰难解释,但始终没有排除引入的可能性,不过他说伊斯兰刑法不能与其它权利相抵触,而且需要得到广泛的公众支持。“我们必须达成共识,这在可预见的未来是不可能出现的。但是如果面临所有马来西亚人都同意的情况,我个人怎么有能力反对呢?”他的解释符合逻辑,可是并不能令人满意。

Anwar has by now finished eating, and is dipping his fingers in a bowl of warm water. I ask him how he found the meal. “Very heavy, but very delicious,” he says, before singling out the lassi for special commendation. Our time is drawing short so we pass on pudding and order coffee, which Anwar has with honey.

安瓦尔此时已经吃完,把手指浸到了温水里。我问他对午餐的感觉如何,他回答说:“菜量很大,但十分可口。”然后还专门赞扬了拉西。我们的时间快用完了,所以开始吃布丁,还点了咖啡。安瓦尔点的咖啡里要了蜂蜜。

I put the question that has been on my mind throughout, namely whether all this quoting of Rawls and Shakespeare is little more than an alluring put-on to gain admirers abroad. For the first time he seems riled. “I quote Shakespeare in Kuala Lumpur and the Koran in the Muslim villages but the message is consistent ? and coherent,” he says. The response is his most passionate, and comes with more hand waving than normal.

我提了一个自始至终都在我头脑里萦绕的问题,引用罗尔斯和莎士比亚的名言,会不会仅仅是为了吸引外国崇拜者而拿出的作秀道具罢了?安瓦尔第一次显得恼怒。他说:“我在吉隆坡会引用莎士比亚,在穆斯林村子里会引用《古兰经》,可是传达的信息是一致的,是连贯相通的。”这是他最富有激情的回答,手也挥舞得比平常更猛烈。

The problem of his twin world views cuts the other way, he says, with his friendships with foreigners ? and in particular Jewish foreigners ? used against him by opponents. “For the past 13 years they have accused me of being a Jewish agent or befriending Jews,” he says. “In every village during elections these people put up photographs of me and Paul Wolfowitz.”

他说,他双重的世界观产生了负面的结果。他与外国人的友谊,尤其是外国犹太人,受到了反对者的攻击。“过去13年里,他们一直指责我是犹太人的代理人,或者与犹太人为伍,”他说。“竞选期间,在每个村子里,这些人都会举起我和保罗?沃尔福威茨的合影。”

But, he continues, speaking of rural voters: “You gel with them if you talk about the Koran as the essence of freedom. ‘You are born free, you are all children of Adam, so why do you insult groups based on difference of race or religion or colour?’” Such attitudes are not popular with the orthodox religious establishment but he says the debate is healthy: “Oh, they say, ‘But it’s a different interpretation.’ Well, let the other sheiks counter me!” he concludes, tapping the side of a nearby mineral water bottle for emphasis.

但是,他继续谈论农村选民:“如果你把《古兰经》阐述为自由的本质,就能和他们凝聚在一起。‘你们都生而自由,你们都是阿丹的孩子,为什么还要因为种族、宗教或肤色的差异而侮辱别人呢?’”这样的态度在正统的宗教体制内并不流行,但是他表示,辩论是健康的。安瓦尔总结道:“他们说:‘可是你这种解释和别人不一样啊。’好啊,让别的谢赫来反驳我吧!”为了强调,他边说边敲打着旁边矿泉水瓶的侧面。

Anwar has a reputation as a fiery public speaker, and, as we prepare to leave, I ask him if he is looking forward to heading back and starting the campaign. He says he is, and I believe him, although I can’t help but feel that he must wish his country didn’t require him to contort this way and that, to try to bring west and east together. As we part I wish him well for the journey ahead, in both senses. I suspect it might be the last time he quotes Shakespeare for some time.

安瓦尔公开演说时措辞猛烈,这一点为人熟知。我们准备离开时,我问他是否期待回国开始竞选造势。他回答说是,我相信他。尽管我情不自禁地觉得,他一定很希望在自己的祖国不必这样或那样拐弯抹角地辩解,不必努力将西方和东方结合在一起。分别时,我祝愿他无论行走的道路还是政治前途,都能一路顺风。不过我怀疑这大概是他在一段时间里,最后一次引用莎士比亚。

James Crabtree is the FT’s Mumbai correspondent

詹姆斯?克拉布特里是英国《金融时报》驻孟买记者

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译者/何黎

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